I'm now EPA lead paint RRP certified

I'm now EPA lead paint RRP certified

Brian LevredgePro Member
Investor · Chattanooga, TN · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 903 votes

This thing, if enforced, is going to have some serious ramifications for property owners and contractors. I took the class in CA but the certification is the same for 42 states, all US territories and federal lands, and Indian reservations. Below is an example of the requirements that would need to be followed if you were to paint a large room that needed a fair amount of prep work. This assumes that lead paint is present and has already been tested for.

- All windows, doors, and vents need to be sealed using 6M plastic. You would need to construct a special entry out of three sheets of plastic using an "I" cut on the center sheet.
- The floors would need to be covered in 6M as well. This is recommended, not required, because it makes the clean up easier.
- The painters are to be covered in protective gear, wear protective eyewear, and have mouth sealing respirators with HEPA filters on them.
- There is no dry scraping allowed. If scraping is being done, you are to spray the areas with water prior to scraping to prevent dust buildup.
- All power tools that ventilate are to be hooked up to HEPA filtered vacuums. The wet dry versions of these run about $800.
- When the work is completed, all debris is to be removed by vacuuming the plastic surface to remove dust and debris. Everything is then wiped down. All disposed of waste is to be bagged and sealed, and taped off using a goose neck procedure.
- All horizontal surfaces are to be wiped down and carpet vacuumed using the HEPA vacuums. This can take forever in a large room.
- Once this is all done, you have to get a clearance test performed to make sure you are below the maximum acceptable levels. If you don't pass, you keep cleaning (which takes hours) until you do pass.

This now means that any small job that only required one man is now going to require at a minimum two men. The prep and take down will take longer than the actual job being performed in most cases. This is going to affect far more than painters as well. Electricians, plumbers, etc., could all very well find themselves having to deal with the new regs.

Property owners can also be fined in addition to the contractor performing the work so don't think the buck can stop with your contractor. Anyone can report you on this as well. There won't be any special EPA inspectors going around. Building inspectors, OSHA, neighbors, etc., can all report you.

Everything I've explained tends to be more a worst case scenario as it was taught to our class. I would also add that in CA, lead is considered HAZMAT and needs to be hauled away by licensed disposal companies. As the owner of the property you own the liability for the material from cradle to grave and the liability is then passed down to your heirs since lead paint doesn't break down.

There is going to be a lot of blowback on this law because it's going to kill construction and place an undue burden on property owners.

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Orlando, FL · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 282 votes
16y

Congratulations on your new certification Brian.

Those post-1978 houses are starting to look better and better...

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Orlando, FL · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 282 votes
    16y

    Congratulations on your new certification Brian.

    Those post-1978 houses are starting to look better and better...

  • Developer · Garland, TX · Member since 2008 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    16y
    Originally posted by Bienes Raices:
    Those post-1978 houses are starting to look better and better...


    And newer sunbelt cities, as opposed to northeast and midwest cities.
  • Orlando, FL · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 282 votes
    16y
    Originally posted by Jon Klaus:
    Originally posted by Bienes Raices:
    Those post-1978 houses are starting to look better and better...


    And newer sunbelt cities, as opposed to northeast and midwest cities.


    Yeah, really. Although unfortunately here in Orlando a lot of the deals were built in the '50s and '60s. But those houses already had one strike against them here anyway because they cost a bit more to insure and usually need a four point inspection (because of the hurricanes) in order to be insured.
  • Landlord · Seattle, WA · Member since 2010 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    16y

    Congrats, Brian.

    I still need to get certified. Washington is not CA, but they still like to regulate everything they can get there hands on.

  • Real Estate Investor · Sacramento, CA · Member since 2008 · 566 posts · 356 votes
    16y

    Congratulations, Brian. An eye opening post, too. It makes the mind race. Think about it, anyone a cop. What kind of weight does this put behind the local building inspectors, and the added red tape that is sure to follow for just about any remodel or rehab permit on these homes. Most paint jobs as you describe wouldn't require a license or a permit today. Draws a very deep line in the sand between pre-79 and post.

    You talk about a simple paint job, what about a rehab, remodel, full gut, or razing a dwelling? Permits, licensing, costs and risks involved with investing in the low income hoods with their old homes and high percentage of rentals are going up, and clearly interest in them is going down.

    Did I mention it makes the mind race? Gotta be real money in there somewhere.

  • Brian LevredgePro Member
    OP
    Investor · Chattanooga, TN · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 903 votes
    16y
    Originally posted by Ralph S.:

    You talk about a simple paint job, what about a rehab, remodel, full gut, or razing a dwelling? Permits, licensing, costs and risks involved with investing in the low income hoods with their old homes and high percentage of rentals are going up, and clearly interest in them is going down.


    This has the potential to be a massive cash cow for those that can get it right. As someone who flips homes and remodels a fair amount of properties, I really had no choice but to get the cert. I think a cottage industry for remediation of lead paint could spring up out of this. In short, you sub out the testing, prep, and clean up to a third party who will set up, and clean up when you are done. It will be expensive but worth it to many contractors.

    Exterior work could prove to be a nightmare as you have to build containment which could entail wrapping scaffolds with 6M plastic and even erecting a plastic ceiling to contain dust. Nevermind that the wind could rip that all apart. They are so carried away with the regs on this thing, that I'm not really sure most people on the govt side even know what to do.

  • Battle Creek, MI · Member since 2008 · 87 posts · 11 votes
    16y

    These new regs apply only to occupied properties?

    What happens if you buy a pre-78 forclosure and need to paint/trim etc?

  • Orlando, FL · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 282 votes
    16y
    Originally posted by Brian Levredge:
    Originally posted by Ralph S.:

    You talk about a simple paint job, what about a rehab, remodel, full gut, or razing a dwelling? Permits, licensing, costs and risks involved with investing in the low income hoods with their old homes and high percentage of rentals are going up, and clearly interest in them is going down.


    This has the potential to be a massive cash cow for those that can get it right. As someone who flips homes and remodels a fair amount of properties, I really had no choice but to get the cert. I think a cottage industry for remediation of lead paint could spring up out of this. In short, you sub out the testing, prep, and clean up to a third party who will set up, and clean up when you are done. It will be expensive but worth it to many contractors.

    Exterior work could prove to be a nightmare as you have to build containment which could entail wrapping scaffolds with 6M plastic and even erecting a plastic ceiling to contain dust. Nevermind that the wind could rip that all apart. They are so carried away with the regs on this thing, that I'm not really sure most people on the govt side even know what to do.




    Why does this law apply to the exterior of buildings, anyway? :roll:

    I wish they would focus their energies the oil spill, instead of this type of thing.

  • Orlando, FL · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 282 votes
    16y
    Originally posted by Scott Williams:
    These new regs apply only to occupied properties?

    What happens if you buy a pre-78 forclosure and need to paint/trim etc?


    Scott, I think it applies to any non-owner occupied property that you will be flipping, selling renting out in the future, whether it's vacant when you do the work or not. On the phone, EPA person told me that if more than six square feet in the house is disturbed (sanding, scraping, etc.) you need to follow their rules. I think if you're just painting over an old paint job and it doesn't need a lot of prep work where the old paint would be disturbed, you don't have to do this.
  • Brian LevredgePro Member
    OP
    Investor · Chattanooga, TN · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 903 votes
    16y
    Originally posted by Bienes Raices:
    Why does this law apply to the exterior of buildings, anyway? :roll:

    I wish they would focus their energies the oil spill, instead of this type of thing.

    It applies to the exterior because if you are scraping or sanding, the lead paint dust gets in the air and can contaminate other people and their property. The same holds true with power washing. They technically want you to build some type of containment to trap the water and then dispose of it rather than let it soak into the ground.

    Like I said, my class was taught in a worst case scenario format so it's hard to imagine doing things the way the instructor was telling us. The whole thing is a joke but someone is going to get nailed over it. They are also trying to expand the law to include all commercial and industrial structures built prior to 82.

  • Rental Property Investor · St. Louis, MO · Member since 2008 · 189 posts · 75 votes
    16y

    Brian,
    Have you started pricing out typical jobs with all this in mind? If replacing a single window was $300 is it now $400? Painting a room $200 now $350 (if sanding required). Just curious if you have any idea what this will cost. My typical rehab is 60-80 years old usually includes doing every type of work that this law now covers.

  • Brian LevredgePro Member
    OP
    Investor · Chattanooga, TN · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 903 votes
    16y
    Originally posted by Mike V:
    Brian,
    Have you started pricing out typical jobs with all this in mind? If replacing a single window was $300 is it now $400? Painting a room $200 now $350 (if sanding required). Just curious if you have any idea what this will cost. My typical rehab is 60-80 years old usually includes doing every type of work that this law now covers.

    Mike,

    I haven't priced it into effect yet but I think it's safe to assume a 30%-40% increase to be compliant. Owner occupied homes are exempt from this stuff, so that may be a strategy to consider when pulling permits. Again, while some people will definitely get nailed in the short term, I can't see these regs really taking hold and being heavily enforced. It would shut down the construction industry, and by default a good percentage of the housing supply, almost overnight.

  • Real Estate Investor · Sacramento, CA · Member since 2008 · 566 posts · 356 votes
    16y

    Wisconsin is the only state that had laws like this prior to the federal law. Back around 2005, I had a section 8 annual inspection that found flaking paint on the outside of the window sill. It was really where the window sash sits on the sill. Fortunately, I knew someone who had the LBP cert, and they did the work. It was only one window, one sill. Under 2 sq ft. Then, it (and I mean the whole duplex) had to be inspected by a LBP inspector. I was sweating bullets. The duplex had pressure treated steps coming out of the lower unit. Not more than 5-10 years old, and not painted. They failed. I asked the inspector how unpainted steps could fail a LBP test, he asked if I remodeled (I did), and he said we tracked it out on our shoes. Made me want to go down and get a blood test. He said that at the level they test (parts per billion), that he could detect lead on just about any sidewalk in these old neighborhoods. Since I wasn't disturbing any paint, I was allowed to paint the steps and then it passed.
    For me, it seemed like don't ask, don't tell. Nobody was really looking, but, when something was noticed, it was handled by the book. Not really unlike permits in general. If you read the local requirements for getting permit for this or that, half the stuff being hauled out of HD would require a permit. They couldn't hire enough inspectors.

    I just think that with this Federal law, things are going to start changing. The pendulum is swinging, and picking up speed. How it is enforced will likely be up to the local municipalities and politicians. Some places will likely see it as a bigger hammer to go after landlords who don't maintain their properties, and therein lies the risk and opportunity. If it is not enforced, then there will be no change. If it is enforced, not only will it become part of negotiating a lower than dirt purchase price, but these neighborhoods might finally be on an uptick. Course, if they really hammer in this market, it could be a disaster.

  • Developer · VA · Member since 2010 · 5 posts · 0 votes
    15y

    I personally feel that this new rule is a farce and a way to crush mom and pop contractors out of business. This rule ONLY applies to contractors and their respective subs.

    If a homeowner decides to paint their pre-78' home and EPA comes in to fine them, they cannot. So apparently, its OK for the actual homeowners to do the repairs incorrectly and breath in the lead paint but not contractors?

    What small contractor can afford a $30k fine per offense?

    My company took the cert class back in June but I really hope they do not start to enforce this. Not for my sake, Im fine. But for the industry in general.

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    15y
    Originally posted by Brian Levredge:
    ... Owner occupied homes are exempt from this stuff, so that may be a strategy to consider when pulling permits. ...

    Owner occupied homes (for pre-1978 construction) are only exempt when the owner is doing all the work themselves. If the owner hires a contractor, the contractor will have to RRP certified. There was a waiver that was permitted for owner occupied homes in 2010, but the time for that has now passed.

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