Confused on where to start

[Stace Breland]

Hey all. Very confused on where to start with sooo much info out there so let me tell you where I’ve come from.

So I guess I am new to investing… kinda. I actually had a failed rental home years ago due to it being semi forced into as we had a home in the Seattle area we had to move out of (and out of the area) right as the pandemic set in and so we couldn’t sell it at the time so rented it for a year. It was essentially a break even/lose a little type deal and after a year we sold. Not the best experience but also didn’t buy the home with intent to rent so it was a suboptimal situation to begin with.

Due to “circumstances” I am considered an accredited investor and I’ve looked at syndication for quite awhile and decided to take the plunge with Brandon (Turner) on one of his ODC offerings but it’s still very new so nothing much to report there. I like the syndication idea and will do more at some point but an extra $100k to invest isn’t going to pop into my bank account every month so not sure how often that will happen.

I am confused due to both information overload as well as vague information. I've read numerous books in the bigger pockets collection, some books not in there, Rich Dad, etc. The thing that I have noticed is that all do nice jobs in creating the right investor mindset (debt is good as long as it's good debt) and giving you a general idea of how to do things, but no resource I've found or read teaches how to go from A to B specifically and explains any of the processes in detail. At this point I know the concepts behind to house hack, fix and flip, arbitrage Airbnb, BRRR, etc, etc, etc but do not actually KNOW how to do any of them in detail to the point that I feel I could take the process from A to Z without pitfalls and mistakes.

Everyone here seems to poo poo the idea of paying “gurus” money to learn systems and how to do these things step by step but no one seems to offer ways to learn the actual steps that doesn’t want to charge you so doesn’t that make all of them “gurus”? What the difference in paying a Pace Morby or someone like that vs paying the hundreds or thousands of dollars for the bigger pockets boot camps or paying a couple thousand dollars to go to a conference? Just seems strange people hate people who ask for money for knowledge (gurus) but that’s happening with even some of the most benevolent names in the field, even bigger pockets big names.

Just not sure if this becomes a “just fall in and you’ll learn” type of thing or if I’m missing some good starting point for someone at my level who knows quite a bit but just doesn’t seem to be putting all the pieces of the puzzle together yet.

[Julien Jeannot]

Hey Stace,
I find that starting with the goal and working your way backwards to your current situation helps cut through the noise. Couple things to consider:

- Do you want to be active or passive?

- Build wealth or cash flow?

- Do you like be able to check on your place ofter or not? In/out state sort of thing.
I've tried a fair amount of strategies and settled on the build equity first, then reposition to cash flow on a portfolio I could keep my eyes on.

That left me with: invest in high appreciating areas with solid rent growth in my home Market of Seattle. The strategy has to be long term 5+ years of hold time. The pros are I've been able to 2x equity and started to cash flow nicely yr 2 or 3. The Con is a bigger down payment and slim to no cash flow early on. I could have done better on the cash flow yr 1 &2, but that would have required a heavier invested in time & $ to source properties.

[Stace Breland]

Quote from @Julien Jeannot:

Hey Stace,
I find that starting with the goal and working your way backwards to your current situation helps cut through the noise. Couple things to consider:

- Do you want to be active or passive?

- Build wealth or cash flow?

- Do you like be able to check on your place ofter or not? In/out state sort of thing.
I've tried a fair amount of strategies and settled on the build equity first, then reposition to cash flow on a portfolio I could keep my eyes on.

That left me with: invest in high appreciating areas with solid rent growth in my home Market of Seattle. The strategy has to be long term 5+ years of hold time. The pros are I've been able to 2x equity and started to cash flow nicely yr 2 or 3. The Con is a bigger down payment and slim to no cash flow early on. I could have done better on the cash flow yr 1 &2, but that would have required a heavier invested in time & $ to source properties.

Hey Julien,

 To answer your questions… a little of both on everything? Lol!  I need to be semi/mostly passive due to still working and not being able to devote full time to this but want to have an active hand in some of it so I understand all the moving parts and how to accomplish them. I’m not looking to hand my money to someone and hope it takes off… I want to learn how to actually do all parts eventually. As for the money aspect… build wealth is the eventual goal but I feel like (and maybe I’m wrong) that I need to put into something that will develop cash flow first and either that will allow scaling OR eventually (this becomes the longer strat) building equity and then selling. I do NOT want to start with one property and sit on it for 3-5 years (for any reason) before moving on to a second, third, etc.. I am truly looking to build a portfolio and scale it up much like Brandon describes. As for local or out of state… I couldn’t care less. I don’t need to look in on them and only really care about what deals end up being the best investment, not necessarily where they are.

What I truly envision is having multiple cash flowing properties with the ability to leverage each one to scale up for more and eventually build wealth. Perhaps that lie in the sky kinda mentality and I’m sure people come in here with aspirations like. One all the time to only fail, but I truly believe that it can be done.

[Theresa Harris]

Julien has good questions.  You also need to know what you can afford both in terms of time and money.

If you want to scale more quickly, then look for less expensive homes-starter homes in good areas (eg 3 bed, 2 bath), not homes in bad areas.

You will generally make more money if you manage it yourself, but that means you need to buy locally, want to manage it yourself and know the local laws.  Rentals take the most time at turnover, so finding a rental in an area with low turnover is better.  Also buying a house in good condition generally cuts down on repairs and there for time and costs.

[Julien Jeannot]

Quote from @Stace Breland:

Quote from @Julien Jeannot:

Hey Stace,
I find that starting with the goal and working your way backwards to your current situation helps cut through the noise. Couple things to consider:

- Do you want to be active or passive?

- Build wealth or cash flow?

- Do you like be able to check on your place ofter or not? In/out state sort of thing.
I've tried a fair amount of strategies and settled on the build equity first, then reposition to cash flow on a portfolio I could keep my eyes on.

That left me with: invest in high appreciating areas with solid rent growth in my home Market of Seattle. The strategy has to be long term 5+ years of hold time. The pros are I've been able to 2x equity and started to cash flow nicely yr 2 or 3. The Con is a bigger down payment and slim to no cash flow early on. I could have done better on the cash flow yr 1 &2, but that would have required a heavier invested in time & $ to source properties.

Hey Julien,

 To answer your questions… a little of both on everything? Lol!  I need to be semi/mostly passive due to still working and not being able to devote full time to this but want to have an active hand in some of it so I understand all the moving parts and how to accomplish them. I’m not looking to hand my money to someone and hope it takes off… I want to learn how to actually do all parts eventually. As for the money aspect… build wealth is the eventual goal but I feel like (and maybe I’m wrong) that I need to put into something that will develop cash flow first and either that will allow scaling OR eventually (this becomes the longer strat) building equity and then selling. I do NOT want to start with one property and sit on it for 3-5 years (for any reason) before moving on to a second, third, etc.. I am truly looking to build a portfolio and scale it up much like Brandon describes. As for local or out of state… I couldn’t care less. I don’t need to look in on them and only really care about what deals end up being the best investment, not necessarily where they are.

What I truly envision is having multiple cash flowing properties with the ability to leverage each one to scale up for more and eventually build wealth. Perhaps that lie in the sky kinda mentality and I’m sure people come in here with aspirations like. One all the time to only fail, but I truly believe that it can be done.

For me real estate is long term game. I've heard plenty of folks preaching short term scaling, but have not seen it done w/ out a lot of cash to back up the acquisition, spending 40hrs/week searching for deals, or another type of resource.

It's a math game.

- Target monthly cash flow / # of properties at $x cash flow * downpayment per property = required cash to reach goal.

- Lets say you are cash flowing $200/mo, that gives you $2,400 a year. You'll never achieve your goals short term by cash flow alone even if you raise rents 10%/year.

-However, 10% YOY appreciation on a leveraged property will results in much faster wealth build which can translate into buying more properties faster. Ex: $550k * 10% = $55k. If you need 20% down for the next property, then that takes you 1/2 way there. 

-There is usually a balance and trade off between appreciation and cash flow market.

-You could mitigate the cash flow issue in appreciating markets with higher downpayments or a Short Term Rental strategy.

[Dan H.]

Quote from @Stace Breland:

Hey all. Very confused on where to start with sooo much info out there so let me tell you where I’ve come from.

So I guess I am new to investing… kinda. I actually had a failed rental home years ago due to it being semi forced into as we had a home in the Seattle area we had to move out of (and out of the area) right as the pandemic set in and so we couldn’t sell it at the time so rented it for a year. It was essentially a break even/lose a little type deal and after a year we sold. Not the best experience but also didn’t buy the home with intent to rent so it was a suboptimal situation to begin with.

Due to “circumstances” I am considered an accredited investor and I’ve looked at syndication for quite awhile and decided to take the plunge with Brandon (Turner) on one of his ODC offerings but it’s still very new so nothing much to report there. I like the syndication idea and will do more at some point but an extra $100k to invest isn’t going to pop into my bank account every month so not sure how often that will happen.

I am confused due to both information overload as well as vague information. I've read numerous books in the bigger pockets collection, some books not in there, Rich Dad, etc. The thing that I have noticed is that all do nice jobs in creating the right investor mindset (debt is good as long as it's good debt) and giving you a general idea of how to do things, but no resource I've found or read teaches how to go from A to B specifically and explains any of the processes in detail. At this point I know the concepts behind to house hack, fix and flip, arbitrage Airbnb, BRRR, etc, etc, etc but do not actually KNOW how to do any of them in detail to the point that I feel I could take the process from A to Z without pitfalls and mistakes.

Everyone here seems to poo poo the idea of paying “gurus” money to learn systems and how to do these things step by step but no one seems to offer ways to learn the actual steps that doesn’t want to charge you so doesn’t that make all of them “gurus”? What the difference in paying a Pace Morby or someone like that vs paying the hundreds or thousands of dollars for the bigger pockets boot camps or paying a couple thousand dollars to go to a conference? Just seems strange people hate people who ask for money for knowledge (gurus) but that’s happening with even some of the most benevolent names in the field, even bigger pockets big names.

Just not sure if this becomes a “just fall in and you’ll learn” type of thing or if I’m missing some good starting point for someone at my level who knows quite a bit but just doesn’t seem to be putting all the pieces of the puzzle together yet.

>What the difference in paying a Pace Morby or someone like that vs paying the hundreds or thousands of dollars for the bigger pockets boot camps or paying a couple thousand dollars to go to a conference?

 The difference is the price. 

The BP boot camps are a couple hundred dollars. I have taken the MF, CRE, and STR boot camps. They are many weeks long for a couple hundred dollars.

BPCon is also fairly cheap ($800 if a pro member) compared to the guru courses.

Some people need to spend a lot to commit.  If that describes you, then a guru may be warranted.

good luck

[Account Closed]

Quote from @Stace Breland:

Hey all. Very confused on where to start with sooo much info out there so let me tell you where I’ve come from.

So I guess I am new to investing… kinda. I actually had a failed rental home years ago due to it being semi forced into as we had a home in the Seattle area we had to move out of (and out of the area) right as the pandemic set in and so we couldn’t sell it at the time so rented it for a year. It was essentially a break even/lose a little type deal and after a year we sold. Not the best experience but also didn’t buy the home with intent to rent so it was a suboptimal situation to begin with.

Due to “circumstances” I am considered an accredited investor and I’ve looked at syndication for quite awhile and decided to take the plunge with Brandon (Turner) on one of his ODC offerings but it’s still very new so nothing much to report there. I like the syndication idea and will do more at some point but an extra $100k to invest isn’t going to pop into my bank account every month so not sure how often that will happen.

I am confused due to both information overload as well as vague information. I've read numerous books in the bigger pockets collection, some books not in there, Rich Dad, etc. The thing that I have noticed is that all do nice jobs in creating the right investor mindset (debt is good as long as it's good debt) and giving you a general idea of how to do things, but no resource I've found or read teaches how to go from A to B specifically and explains any of the processes in detail. At this point I know the concepts behind to house hack, fix and flip, arbitrage Airbnb, BRRR, etc, etc, etc but do not actually KNOW how to do any of them in detail to the point that I feel I could take the process from A to Z without pitfalls and mistakes.

Everyone here seems to poo poo the idea of paying “gurus” money to learn systems and how to do these things step by step but no one seems to offer ways to learn the actual steps that doesn’t want to charge you so doesn’t that make all of them “gurus”? What the difference in paying a Pace Morby or someone like that vs paying the hundreds or thousands of dollars for the bigger pockets boot camps or paying a couple thousand dollars to go to a conference? Just seems strange people hate people who ask for money for knowledge (gurus) but that’s happening with even some of the most benevolent names in the field, even bigger pockets big names.

Just not sure if this becomes a “just fall in and you’ll learn” type of thing or if I’m missing some good starting point for someone at my level who knows quite a bit but just doesn’t seem to be putting all the pieces of the puzzle together yet.

@Stace Breland: Seattle and Frisco are two different worlds. We raised the family in Magnolia, a bit of an island in the city and I would not even consider investing there at this juncture. It's just too easy to bash Seattle for the crime and anti landlord stances. Things have changed, most unfortunately.

But, I do invest in Texas, Arizona, Ohio, Indiana, Tennessee, and Arkansas. All of those offer great deals, (if you know how to look for them) and are much more investor friendly. Consider keeping things easy and invest where you are wanted.

[Nathan Gesner]

The gurus often give you a lot of rah-rah motivation but very little practical information. Many of them are just an up-sell to the next big secret that still provides very little information. 

Here's a true example. I bought Pace Morby's book when it came out and was pretty disappointed that it had very little practical information. His book included 12 hours of "bonus video content" that was basically Pace telling stories that corresponded to each chapter of his book. I listened to 4-5 hours of "bonus" content and didn't learn anything that wasn't included in the book. It's just fluff. I think it was all fluff, just like his YouTube channel, designed to get people excited to sign up for his course or whatever.

BP has training that is far cheaper. They have forums, blogs, and podcasts full of free information. And there are many books on real estate investing that are full or practical, actionable advice without all the fluff you see in most modern books.

1. Start with BiggerPockets Ultimate Beginners Guide (free). It will familiarize you with the basic terminology and benefits. Then you can read a more in-depth book like The Book On Rental Property Investing by Brandon Turner or The Unofficial Guide to Real Estate Investing by Spencer Strauss (my personal favorite and it was written over 20 years ago before books became shiny objects designed to upsell).

2. Get your finances in order. Get rid of debt, build a budget, and save. The idea that you can build wealth without putting any money into it is a recipe for disaster and the sales pitch of gurus trying to steal your money. A wise investor will not try to get rich quick with shortcuts. If you can't keep control of your personal finances, you are highly unlikely to succeed in real estate investing. Check out my personal favorite, Set For Life by Scott Trench , or The Total Money Makeover by Dave Ramsey.

3. As you read these books, watch the BiggerPockets podcasts. This will clarify and reinforce what you are reading. You can hear real-world examples of how others have built their investment portfolio and (hopefully) learn to avoid their mistakes.

4. NETWORK!!! Get out of your comfort zone. Stop hanging out with your deadbeat buddies that spend all day drinking, talking sports, and otherwise wasting away. Go to BUILD YOUR TEAM at the top of the screen and look for local investors or meetups in your area. You can also find real estate investing groups through meetup.com, facebook, or a Google search. Birds of a feather flock together!

5. Now you need to figure out how to find deals and pay for them. Again, the BiggerPockets store has some books for this or you can learn by watching podcasts, reading blogs, and interacting on the forum. There is a handy search bar in the upper right that makes it easy to find previous discussions, blogs, podcasts, and other resources. BiggerPockets also has a calculator you can use to analyze deals and I highly recommend you start this as soon as possible, even if you are not ready to buy. If you consistently analyze properties, it will be much easier to recognize a good deal when it shows up. Find Brandon's videos on YouTube for the "four square" method of analyzing homes and practice. It doesn't take long to learn how to spot a good deal.

6. Study the market. You can learn to do this on your own or get a rockstar REALTOR to lead the way. I highly recommend a well-qualified REALTOR that works with investors and knows how to best help you.

7. Jump in! Far too many get stuck in the "paralysis by analysis" stage, thinking they just don't know enough to get started. The truth is, you could read 100 books and still not know enough because certain things need to be learned through trial-and-error. You don't need to know everything to get started; you just need a foundation to build on and the rest will come through experience and then refining your education.

You can build a basic understanding of investing in 3-6 months. How long it takes to be financially ready is different for everyone. Once you're ready, create a goal (e.g. "I will buy at least one single-family home, duplex, triplex, or fourplex before the end of 2019") and then do it. Real estate investing is a pretty forgiving world and the average person can still make money even with some pretty big mistakes.

[Bruce Lynn]

Quote from @Nathan Gesner:

The gurus often give you a lot of rah-rah motivation but very little practical information. 

Probably one of the Top 5 answers I've ever seen on BP.  Thank you.  @Stace Breland  this is great advice.
Since you are in Frisco...you are so lucky.  I feel like DFW is the center of the universe for all kinds of real estate meet ups and information.   From mobile homes, to flipping, to multifamily, to whatever you want to do, probably someone doing it here and shares a bit of their success.

Come join us on 9/14 6pm in Plano for mulit-family.   https://www.meetup.com/Multifamily-Investor-Networking-of-No...   Great group and many started somewhere else.    

There will also be a great meeting next month at the Truck Yard behind Nebraska furniture mart at lunch with Elevate Group.  This is multi-focused.  Not sure date is set yet.  Zach from Rise 48 will be the speaker and I expect it will not disappoint.   https://www.eventbrite.com/e/elevate-multifamily-investing-m...

One thing I think I would suggest is to focus on ONE Thing....how you pick that one thing....not sure about that. Maybe like others have mentioned, go to BPCON where you get exposed to lots of different ideas and avenues. Maybe write a business plan...or spend some time thinking and strategizing about different options....kind of a SWAT analysis....plan out the time, investment, passion, and profits of each avenue. Probably few people do this and we should. Plenty of people evolve too....lets flip....ohhh that takes time and work....ohhh let's buy and hold....I don't like dealing with tenants....I can make 3x rent with STR....then STR gets banned and we'll move it to MTR......and then if you have the money....lets do syndications as an LP.....I like this.....let's do it as a GP.....

Best wishes and good luck finding your passion.

[Bob Stevens]

Quote from @Stace Breland:

Hey all. Very confused on where to start with sooo much info out there so let me tell you where I’ve come from.

So I guess I am new to investing… kinda. I actually had a failed rental home years ago due to it being semi forced into as we had a home in the Seattle area we had to move out of (and out of the area) right as the pandemic set in and so we couldn’t sell it at the time so rented it for a year. It was essentially a break even/lose a little type deal and after a year we sold. Not the best experience but also didn’t buy the home with intent to rent so it was a suboptimal situation to begin with.

Due to “circumstances” I am considered an accredited investor and I’ve looked at syndication for quite awhile and decided to take the plunge with Brandon (Turner) on one of his ODC offerings but it’s still very new so nothing much to report there. I like the syndication idea and will do more at some point but an extra $100k to invest isn’t going to pop into my bank account every month so not sure how often that will happen.

I am confused due to both information overload as well as vague information. I've read numerous books in the bigger pockets collection, some books not in there, Rich Dad, etc. The thing that I have noticed is that all do nice jobs in creating the right investor mindset (debt is good as long as it's good debt) and giving you a general idea of how to do things, but no resource I've found or read teaches how to go from A to B specifically and explains any of the processes in detail. At this point I know the concepts behind to house hack, fix and flip, arbitrage Airbnb, BRRR, etc, etc, etc but do not actually KNOW how to do any of them in detail to the point that I feel I could take the process from A to Z without pitfalls and mistakes.

Everyone here seems to poo poo the idea of paying “gurus” money to learn systems and how to do these things step by step but no one seems to offer ways to learn the actual steps that doesn’t want to charge you so doesn’t that make all of them “gurus”? What the difference in paying a Pace Morby or someone like that vs paying the hundreds or thousands of dollars for the bigger pockets boot camps or paying a couple thousand dollars to go to a conference? Just seems strange people hate people who ask for money for knowledge (gurus) but that’s happening with even some of the most benevolent names in the field, even bigger pockets big names.

Just not sure if this becomes a “just fall in and you’ll learn” type of thing or if I’m missing some good starting point for someone at my level who knows quite a bit but just doesn’t seem to be putting all the pieces of the puzzle together yet.

 A LOT of writing to ask where to start :) KEEP IT SIMPLE. All you need to do is connect with those doing deals, NOT GURUS, you will learn more in a week then a year reading books and watching videos. I have never read one RE book or been to any seminar. In my 1st month I flipped a contract for 19k. Well, that was 10- 12 years ago, since then about 500, yes 500 deals, all while living OOS mostly on the beach. I have done it all, again, never reading any books. Its NOT that complicated, buy right, fix right, sell/ rent right, YES that simple. It's just numbers, 

All the best 

[Abbey Humphreys]

Hey Stace- welcome. I hear you on where you're coming from- lots of advice of a more vague nature and very little nitty gritty substantial steps of action. "Gurus" can be helpful, of course, but I think the vitriol on here comes from the snakeoil vibe that they give off in that they hawk this idea of "completely passive" income and get-rich-quick schemes. 

However, for more detailed direction, I would wholeheartedly recommend getting to know those that are involved in real estate in your market. This is possible through REI meetups and online forums. You can ask specific questions and in my experience, many people are more than happy to share what they've learned. Good luck!

[Stace Breland]

Quote from @Abbey Humphreys:

Hey Stace- welcome. I hear you on where you're coming from- lots of advice of a more vague nature and very little nitty gritty substantial steps of action. "Gurus" can be helpful, of course, but I think the vitriol on here comes from the snakeoil vibe that they give off in that they hawk this idea of "completely passive" income and get-rich-quick schemes. 

However, for more detailed direction, I would wholeheartedly recommend getting to know those that are involved in real estate in your market. This is possible through REI meetups and online forums. You can ask specific questions and in my experience, many people are more than happy to share what they've learned. Good luck!

Honestly, thanks to everyone above for the suggestions. There is some really good info here and I appreciate the direction. Despite what @Bob Stevens said, I don’t think it’s easy and “just do it” is the right approach. Paralysis by analysis is real, definitely in my case, and I know a bit but not enough to complete deals without making some major mistakes that are totally avoidable with knowledge. 

[Stace Breland]

Quote from @Bruce Lynn:

Quote from @Nathan Gesner:

The gurus often give you a lot of rah-rah motivation but very little practical information. 

Probably one of the Top 5 answers I've ever seen on BP.  Thank you.  @Stace Breland  this is great advice.
Since you are in Frisco...you are so lucky.  I feel like DFW is the center of the universe for all kinds of real estate meet ups and information.   From mobile homes, to flipping, to multifamily, to whatever you want to do, probably someone doing it here and shares a bit of their success.

Come join us on 9/14 6pm in Plano for mulit-family.   https://www.meetup.com/Multifamily-Investor-Networking-of-No...   Great group and many started somewhere else.    

There will also be a great meeting next month at the Truck Yard behind Nebraska furniture mart at lunch with Elevate Group.  This is multi-focused.  Not sure date is set yet.  Zach from Rise 48 will be the speaker and I expect it will not disappoint.   https://www.eventbrite.com/e/elevate-multifamily-investing-m...

One thing I think I would suggest is to focus on ONE Thing....how you pick that one thing....not sure about that. Maybe like others have mentioned, go to BPCON where you get exposed to lots of different ideas and avenues. Maybe write a business plan...or spend some time thinking and strategizing about different options....kind of a SWAT analysis....plan out the time, investment, passion, and profits of each avenue. Probably few people do this and we should. Plenty of people evolve too....lets flip....ohhh that takes time and work....ohhh let's buy and hold....I don't like dealing with tenants....I can make 3x rent with STR....then STR gets banned and we'll move it to MTR......and then if you have the money....lets do syndications as an LP.....I like this.....let's do it as a GP.....

Best wishes and good luck finding your passion.

Thanks @Bruce, definitely some good info here! Since you are local I’ll definitely take your opinion on the area as fact and think I need to find some of these meetings you mentioned. I definitely like the look of the meet up on 9/14 and am actually off work so will try to fit that in but I’m the link it did say that the purpose of the meeting was NOT mentoring so not sure if a noob like me will fit in too well with more questions and problems than answers and deals to discuss.

[Brandon Goldsmith]

As many others have said, its all about connecting with those who are actually doing what they say they are and being able to prove it. There will be some mistakes but along the way but as long as you are mitigating them you will be much better off from these learning curves than 99 percent of courses. @Stace Breland

[Nicholas L.]

@Stace Breland

welcome. ask all the questions you want.

i'll throw something out there.  it's much, much harder to invest for cash flow now than it was 5 or 10 years ago.  so, if you listen to old BP podcasts, or read books from 5-10 years ago, it seems a lot easier than it is now.  the current combination of: high prices + high interest rates + low inventory + high investor demand is making it very, very tough to just buy any old property and even net a couple hundred dollars a month.  a lot of what would have cash flowed is break even or negative now (unless, of course, you're paying all cash, in which almost anything will cash flow.)

i just think that's important to note as a beginning investor.  if you listen to recent BP podcasts, David Greene has really started to emphasize this.

[Dave Kush]

Based on everything you said, I think you just need to jump in. If you want to read one more book, I always recommend the Weekend Millionaires Guide to Real Estate Investing by Mike Summey and Roger Dawson. The b r r r book is more detailed and more up-to-date. That said, in this book they give you a pretty good step by step.

To be honest, once you know the outline, most of this comes down to practice.  You can't wait for all the lights to be green before you leave the house. Life is a journey and you only can see up to the next bend. 

Learning from another person is not a bad idea. Maybe instead of paying a guru though, you could offer to work for somebody for little or no money to gain some experience. You could also offer to take investors out to breakfast or lunch and talk to them in more detail.

[James Hamling]

@Stace Breland you bring up some really great points here, and I thank you for it. 

I myself am guilty of being on of those strongly speaking out against the "guru's", and while I fully comprehend why, you've helped hold up a mirror for me that I realize it is probably far from clear to most as to the why. 

As @Nathan Gesner pointed to, my issue with "Guru's" is similarly that over the years I have seen program after program, wrapped in a marketing message that one would think it's almost like buying a franchise system, just make this purchase and the how's and what's will be fully disclosed, and in truth, it's a ponzy-scheme of REI insight.

They pump yesterdays deals of students, to sell people on programs today, and most often that deal of yesterday doesn't apply to todays market. Or worse yet, the tiered programs that only take you through pay-wall after pay-wall to "find out the secrets of..." and it's just a never ending loop that only contains basic knowledge points like hire a PM, or get an agent who can help you, just really basic items not worth the payment. 

Now that said, there is nuggets to be picked up, that with time and compiling it all, can help a person out. The problem is it's a colossal work of piece-meal'ing together the whole. 

Something that brings a person A to Z in a real actionable sense. I think one issue why none really exists is due to it's "sizzle" factor, it simply wouldn't have much of a marketing appeal. In truth it would be something like "the get rich slow method" or "how to grind you way through things", lol. The reality to REI is there is a hell of a lot of work to it and a crazy amount of math. Fed reports, various financial reporting's and forecasts, really REALLY boring stuff. But that's what we really do. It's not sexy, it's not marketable, but it's the real stuff of it.

That cycle repeats for things like entity formation, tax strategies, lease design and revisions, all the various contracts (OH all the flipping contracts involved in REI, and revisions year after year). My average week is about 80-90 hours, it's a lifestyle.

As for operational aspect, honestly, how to do things BEST comes from compiling years, decades of knowledge on how NOT to do things. Gained from either messing it up yourself, or ideally, being wise enough to learn from others mistakes. And this can be additionally gained through various edu. programs and associations. 

End of day, what I hear in your desire and interest, sounds to me like JV'ing, partnering with someone who checks those box's of experience and knowledge. You can be what you are at this point, the financial aspect, and they bring everything else. That is going to give you (a) that control and (b) the unfettered legitimate vision into all things with (c) ready access to the "master" who can give those insights into why your doing this vs that, when, how etc..

I have some of these myself and they seem to fit to what your explaining. Other then that, I don't know of a single program of any kind that lends itself to all that, closest being getting a license and changing career to Real Estate which isn't a realistic option, right. 

[Michael W. McCord]

Its one thing to pay a guru thousands for a standardized course with few networking opportunities and another to pay just hundreds to go to BPCON and meet all kinds of folks. I have never paid a guru for a course but have gone to meetups and participated in 27 syndications over the past 5 years where I have followed the sponsors progress and learned all kinds of things. Most importantly, how to spot a good deal from a bad one. Meet local investors, follow what they do and if you like a deal they are doing, then participate. Worst case your deal goes bad, then consider that your tuition for an education....which is what you would have paid a guru anyway.

[Steve Milford]

My reco is that you become an agent to help you get the inside scoop. You can go see and sniff homes you think would be viable right away, and then "guestimate" what you think they would sell for. After you view 50-100 homes, you will get a feel for what you want, and what kind of offers are appropriate and "out there". Print some cards, go to some meetups, and start making friends. Even if you find someone who wants to do a deal, yet you don't feel comfortable doing it, you can farm it off and still make a few bucks while you learn. 

Imo debt is only good if you can use it to get higher and better leverage elsewhere. And frankly, that is hard to do right now. Some people like many doors, and some like few but with depth. Everyone has their own quirks. The problem I see is that you are looking for guaranteed growth, but real estate investing is also speculative. Who knew COVID was going to shut down the world? But is it more speculative than stock market investing? I know people on BP who sold it all a few years ago and are only in T-bills right now. 

Re gurus, they offer a version of what they did as education. That is really their model. Even Pace admits if you watch enough of his videos. He doesn't do deals himself anymore, he just helps those who have trouble who have paid him $8,000 for his "program". 

Realistically, you already have data from your prior deal. Now evaluate it to make sure you don't make the same mistakes - if you can call them that. I call them learning experiences. That is the mindset - we learn fastest when we fail. Some fail and get stuck. Some fail and move on.

To get started in any of them, you buy something, then rework it for higher value, and sell "it". I.e. You buy a duplex, fix it up for traveling nurses or other corporate people, put it on Airbnb, learn about the fees, and see if it cash flows. Most tell me, in the STR space, many quickly realize it is NOT even close to passive. Maybe you convert to MTR because STR gets banned. Maybe you go for a long-term rental. Everyone is a little different. Heck, I am studying for my MLO license because I want higher knowledge and found I like the numbers side more.

[Chad McMahan]

Quote from @Stace Breland:

Hey all. Very confused on where to start with sooo much info out there so let me tell you where I’ve come from.

So I guess I am new to investing… kinda. I actually had a failed rental home years ago due to it being semi forced into as we had a home in the Seattle area we had to move out of (and out of the area) right as the pandemic set in and so we couldn’t sell it at the time so rented it for a year. It was essentially a break even/lose a little type deal and after a year we sold. Not the best experience but also didn’t buy the home with intent to rent so it was a suboptimal situation to begin with.

Due to “circumstances” I am considered an accredited investor and I’ve looked at syndication for quite awhile and decided to take the plunge with Brandon (Turner) on one of his ODC offerings but it’s still very new so nothing much to report there. I like the syndication idea and will do more at some point but an extra $100k to invest isn’t going to pop into my bank account every month so not sure how often that will happen.

I am confused due to both information overload as well as vague information. I've read numerous books in the bigger pockets collection, some books not in there, Rich Dad, etc. The thing that I have noticed is that all do nice jobs in creating the right investor mindset (debt is good as long as it's good debt) and giving you a general idea of how to do things, but no resource I've found or read teaches how to go from A to B specifically and explains any of the processes in detail. At this point I know the concepts behind to house hack, fix and flip, arbitrage Airbnb, BRRR, etc, etc, etc but do not actually KNOW how to do any of them in detail to the point that I feel I could take the process from A to Z without pitfalls and mistakes.

Everyone here seems to poo poo the idea of paying “gurus” money to learn systems and how to do these things step by step but no one seems to offer ways to learn the actual steps that doesn’t want to charge you so doesn’t that make all of them “gurus”? What the difference in paying a Pace Morby or someone like that vs paying the hundreds or thousands of dollars for the bigger pockets boot camps or paying a couple thousand dollars to go to a conference? Just seems strange people hate people who ask for money for knowledge (gurus) but that’s happening with even some of the most benevolent names in the field, even bigger pockets big names.

Just not sure if this becomes a “just fall in and you’ll learn” type of thing or if I’m missing some good starting point for someone at my level who knows quite a bit but just doesn’t seem to be putting all the pieces of the puzzle together yet.

Hi Stace.
Here is advice based on 20 years of very active real estate investing + quite a few years as an investment (nowadays, 90% STR's) specialized real estate agent in the Sedona/Northern AZ area:

Buying properties for yourself or in syndication (which is very different from investing in a real estate investment fund):
1) Interview several real estate agents in hot investment areas (whatever type of investment you are interested in- you're the boss. STR's, multifamily, SFH LTR's, MTR's. If you don't know yet, then start by interviewing investment specialized agents anywhere in the county that are kicking butt, and talk numbers, relative to you available cash, etc. I'd be happy to give suggestions on questions to ask, and how to find a top agent that will fiercely look after you- reach out if this would be helpful. You really don't need agents/areas in your back yard- that's a myth). I'm VERY picky who I work with, when I buy outside of my area- and yes, I hire investment specialized agents and pay them the full commission- because a great agent is worth more than 3%; They protect my butt beyond words, and get me deals that usually save me at least 5-10% AND identify properties that will perform 10% better than the competition based on what works best in that area. I'd then choose my top agent in the 1st location for your purchase, and focus on them- be loyal. If they are great, and truly investment specialized, they will be able to connect you with all the team members you need for a successful and profitable purchase, including a fantastic property manager, highly competitive and strong lender/mortgage broker, fair/reliable/quality/timely contractors, reliable cleaners, the best photographer in the state (always pay more for the best, so your properties stand out), and more. The real estate agent should be able to take "real" numbers on the fly, so you can compare several properties and get a crash course in expected and realistic returns VS investment & time off market, etc.

The biggest blunder I regularly see is buyers choosing agents that handle all transactions and are not niche to investment, and often times don't do much business. Buyers purchase something, the agent plays the role of the cheerleader, and then the new owner fails to turn profit and resells the property at a loss of time/energy/money after 6 months. These agents are cheerleaders, not value-adders.


2) As the "team" grows and you get all the support you need, talk with the loan team member, contractor, the PM, and of course lots of conversation with the real estate agent, to get the full picture of cash needed, time frame, expenses after close of escrow, gross income VS profits, and what renovation may be needed and exactly what that would look like. All of this info is the gold, that takes an experienced, quality team to provide accurate data so you can move forward.


3) Then the real estate agent should help you manage the big picture stuff to support moving forward, as well as property details, negotiations, inspections, showings, paperwork, etc. The agent is the head coach, and you are the team owner.


Honorable mention:

Even though it's not really needed to invest nor get started, I *highly* recommend you invest in real estate investment education to fuel your fire, and help you make more profitable and effective choices. Read books by wealthy experts that created wealth through real estate (not wannabees), attend seminars, study through classes taught by legit experts, etc. I also recommend you study past and present economy and fiat currency (good lord, this is boring to me, but so important), to better understand what's happening and where our economy is going- as it will help you invest wisely, and understand crash/boom timing. Paying for expert education is 100 X more valuable than getting it for free. Wealthy investors spend a lot of money on continued education and prioritize this above almost everything else. But this is NOT required to dive into investing, it's ongoing. Again, a truly savvy investment specialized agent will also be an active and highly experienced investor- so they should be able to recommend some strong books to get you started. When I don't need to make phone calls, I listen to audio books while driving. I usually get through 1-3 per week. I study hard, so that I know more than other agents and I dominate other agents and the market place, and so that when investing- when preparation meets opportunity, I can pounce.

Investing in a real estate investment fund:

This is great, as long as the fund/general partners are very strong/experienced and utilize an effective strategy. Be careful about building/development strategies if they cannot show a copy/paste history and show actual timelines with similar developments. Unlike with a syndication, when investing in a real estate investment fund, you don't actually own the real estate, you are a limited partner and it's truly passive income- you invest, get investment updates from the managing entity and wait for the check(s). Some funds payout as quickly as year 1, some funds payout later- such as 10-20 years, or anything in between.

A lot of info, I know. And this compounds the issue of too much info out there. Start with a damn good agent and ask them for help setting up some dominoes.

Carpe diem.

[Bonnie Low]

You're not at all wrong, nor are you alone, about the abundance of "mindset" experts out there vs. the relative scarcity of how-to experts. This has been a pet peeve of mine for a LONG time. When I first got into investing, there was just so much information to soak up that I listened to and read everything I could find. Most of it gave me general ideas, but the one recurring theme I found was the lack of how-to information. Being a person with an Operations background, this drives me nuts. There are a few exceptions. Our very first investment deal was a flip. We studied Jay Scott's The Book on Estimating Rehab Costs front-to-back and it DID really help us run our numbers. The pricing in the book is outdated now, of course, but the fundamentals are still there. We coupled that with the BP calculators that showed us how to factor in our holding costs and other things we weren't sure how to estimate and we made money on that first flip. Not a lot - maybe $27k when it was all said and done after taxes, but considering we didn't have a big nest egg to begin with it was a step in the right direction. I think we would've been flying blind without that resource. I have heard nothing but excellent reports about Pace Morby's coaching, though I haven't used it myself. I have used Rachel Gainsbrugh's course on insurance placements for MTRs and I can tell you that the level of detail and resources she provides is literally everything you need. So there are some good ones out there. You can also start simple and start slow. It's not hard to buy a property and househack. It's as straightforward as it gets. Or arbitrage an STR or MTR property - you won't have a lot invested and therefore won't have a lot to lose. As your knowledge grows so will your confidence. Don't get caught up trying to pursue something too complicated to begin with.

[Bruce Lynn]

You might try attending the REI expo in Arlington next weekend. Lots of different speakers and see if one idea or another catches your ear.

[Stace Breland]

Man, a ton of great tips in here! @Bruce Lynn, I’d love to make the expo but I’m working all weekend pretty much.

@Bonnie Low Thanks for the book recommendation, I’ll definitely have to grab that one!

@Chad McMahan Holy crap, so much good info!  I learned a ton and might need to reach out to you at some point about your advice on realtors… that was gold!

[Beth Blankenbicker]

Sometimes I arrive at a decision not by choosing an option but by eliminating all the other options. Maybe make a list of all the different ways to get started in real estate wholesaling, flip, buy and hold, house hack, etc.

Now eliminate what doesn't make sense, for example house hacking is an excellent way to get started but if you are straight up unwilling to live with a roommate or neighbor/tenant then cross that off.

Myself I can eliminate wholesaling because I work two W-2 jobs and I don't have the time to chase leads and if I'm making any phone calls its at 2 a.m. on my lunch break (nightshift) which I'm sure would not go over well with most people. 

Now with the shortened list break them down like buy and hold you could buy with traditional financing, DSCR loan, BRRR. If you don't have capital for the 20% down for traditional loans eliminate that. Keep eliminating until you have just a few options left.

Once you have narrowed it down to 2 or 3 options that COULD work for you choose ONE and focus on it until you master it. Once you master it then allow yourself to explore another option. There are so many different ways to approach real estate investing its easy to spin your wheels and gain no traction. (Ask me how I know this!!)

Anyway hope that helps.

[Stace Breland]

Quote from @Beth Blankenbicker:

Sometimes I arrive at a decision not by choosing an option but by eliminating all the other options. Maybe make a list of all the different ways to get started in real estate wholesaling, flip, buy and hold, house hack, etc.

Now eliminate what doesn't make sense, for example house hacking is an excellent way to get started but if you are straight up unwilling to live with a roommate or neighbor/tenant then cross that off.

Myself I can eliminate wholesaling because I work two W-2 jobs and I don't have the time to chase leads and if I'm making any phone calls its at 2 a.m. on my lunch break (nightshift) which I'm sure would not go over well with most people. 

Now with the shortened list break them down like buy and hold you could buy with traditional financing, DSCR loan, BRRR. If you don't have capital for the 20% down for traditional loans eliminate that. Keep eliminating until you have just a few options left.

Once you have narrowed it down to 2 or 3 options that COULD work for you choose ONE and focus on it until you master it. Once you master it then allow yourself to explore another option. There are so many different ways to approach real estate investing its easy to spin your wheels and gain no traction. (Ask me how I know this!!)

Anyway hope that helps.

Yeah, sadly house hacking isn’t an option for me as we already own our “dram home” in a dream location so moving out and taking up residence in a duplex or 4 plex or whatever would make my wife MOST displeased. Wholesaling isn’t an option (nor do I really like the sound of it) like you said because my primary job is far too well compensated to give up time there so yeah… a few things already off the list.  Most of the buy and hold options or STRs are still on the list so just going through education about those now to try to knock some more off the list.